Interview With Lee Cockerell on Leadership | High Speed Low Drag Podcast

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Tom: Welcome back, everyone, to another episode of the High Speed Low Drag podcast. I’m your host, Tom Morkes, and I’m very excited to have Lee Cockerell on the line today.

Lee was the Executive Vice President of Operations for Walk Disney Parks and Resorts from 1997 until his retirement in 2006. Prior to being an Executive Vice President of Operations for Walt Disney Parks and Resorts, he worked for Hilton and Marriott International.

Lee is the author of three books, Time Management Magic, The Customer Rules, and Creating Magic: Ten Common Sense Leadership Strategies from a Life at Disney.

Lee was a member of the army reserves from ’64 to ’65, and for the past five years, he’s been working with the US Military, visiting bases all around the world, including combat zones, to support and inspire the troops.

Lee, thank you so much for being on the call with us today.

Lee: Good to be here. Thanks.

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Tom: Lee, tell us a little bit about yourself. You have pretty extensive background. I’ve barely scraped the surface of it. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Lee: Well, I was probably the most likely not to succeed when I got out of high school. I grew up on a little farm in Oklahoma. We didn’t even have indoor plumbing. We were so poor. We couldn’t believe it. It was a dairy farm.

My brother and I laugh now. We didn’t know about air conditioning. When we found out about it, we really felt that was a pretty good deal. But my mother was married five times. I was adopted twice. I’m on my third name. I got my name Cockerell when I was 16 by husband number four. He had money, so I got to go to college for two years, but I was such a terrible student. I flunked out and joined the army in 1964.

I was in the reserves and became a cook in the army. When I got out of the army, I met a guy in the army who was going to go open the Washington Hilton in Washington DC. It’s been open 50 years now. We got there two weeks before opening, and I got myself a job as a banquet waiter.

I’d really never been in a big hotel. I was the best little banquet waiter they ever had. The next thing I knew, they put me in a management training program. I stayed with Hilton for eight years and worked in Washington, Chicago, the Waldorf Astoria in New York, Los Angeles, and then I quit in about 1973.

I went to another job. I thought I was going to make twice my salary, and I got fired after 90 days. That was not too much fun. Then I didn’t have a job. I ended up at Marriott for 17 years and had a great career. Ended up being the Food and Beverage Director and Vice President of Food and Beverage Planning for the company worldwide.

rtaImageThen I got recruited in 1990 by Disney to go to Paris and open Disneyland Paris. After three years there, they sent me back to Orlando and put me in charge of all the operations. I did that for ten years until I retired about either years ago. Started my own business speaking, giving seminars, workshops, coaching, counseling people. Man, if you’d ask my teachers back then, Lee Cockerel ran Disney World, they’d say “Couldn’t be the same Lee that went to high school here.”

I don’t even remember hardly going to class. But it worked out. I think I can give some of your listeners some pretty good advice on don’t underestimate what you can accomplish in your life, and sometimes you’ve got to start over and be positive about it and move forward. It was an interesting career for me. My wife and I have been married 46 years. Life’s going good, because she said she’s not going to leave me, so I’m definitely going to pick it up.

Tom: Good. That’s good to hear. Well, another thing ? a lesson learned ? that I hear from that story is also don’t necessarily believe all the advice that you’re given or take it very much to heart, especially when you’re younger. Would you say that’s true?

Lee: Absolutely. I think you’ve got to do two things. Don’t take everything seriously. Check everything out. But also take some risks, too. Don’t get stuck in some place that you’re sorry for 50 years later or 30 years later, you wish you’d have taken a job. You wish you’d have moved. You wish you’d have got out of the situation you’re in. Try to get rid of all those obstacles in your life.

I learned that. My wife and I moved 11 times. Her dad was in the Navy for 32 years. She moved 12 times with him. I married a saint. But we loved everywhere we lived. It was for opportunities. I would take any job they’d promote me into and go do it. Next thing I know, you get another promotion.

That’s kind of how you have to think about it. Sometimes, it’s not all that much fun to be moving, but you’ve got to go where the opportunities are if you want to end up with a great life.

Tom: Absolutely. I love that. Real quick, on your army career, you said you joined the army reserves in ’64. You were a cook, is that correct?

Lee: Yeah. I was a cook, and let me tell you what. Out of 300 guys in cook school, I came in number two, and a professional chef came in number one. I was a baker. Man, I could bake pies, hamburger buns, all kinds of things. I really got good at it, following the recipe. That’s why I liked the army. I liked the discipline. There’s a way to do it, and you better do it that way.

Actually, a guy tried to come to Disney once, and after I told him what it’s like to work at Disney, he said “I don’t want to be here. This is like the army.”

I said “That’s right. That’s why Disney’s great and the army’s great. Discipline.

Tom: I love that. Tell me ? this is going to be a pretty broad question ? after the military, though, then you went and you became a waiter, is that correct?

Lee: Yeah.

Tom: You mentioned before you grew up poor, and you basically started from nothing.

Lee: I’d never even been in a hotel before. When you work on a farm, you don’t go on vacation. Animals are there. I was in a motel once when we were 16 or 17. We got a keg of beer and rented a room. That was the only hotel I’d ever been in.

Tom: You were prepping for your time at Walt Disney in terms of how to throw a good party, is that correct?

Lee: Yeah. That was my development program, I guess. But I was lucky at the Washington Hilton, because somebody took me by the hand and taught me the business, you know? I think about him all the time. He said “I’ll work with you. I’ll show you. I’ll teach you how to do it.”

Man, I had a good attitude. That’s one reason I got a headline. My attitude was real positive, and I’m real organized. People like to help you. If you’ve got a good attitude, people help you do about anything you want to do.

Tom: Would you say that you learned that? You have that attitude. Is that natural or something that you developed over time?

Lee: When you work on a farm, you have a responsibility, even young kids. I milked a cow when I was in third grade every morning. That was part of my development program. We had electric milkers, but my mother made me do it then sell the milk. We had to clean the barn. My brother and I worked out whole life till we left home and worked in lumber yards unloading boxcars, cement, sheet rock. We always had jobs.

I think that was one of the keys. I’m worried about kids today that don’t work at 16, 17, and 18, then they get out of college or they get out there in the world and they find out the world’s pretty tough. If you get tuned up on working, it’s not a big shock. You also get more mature. You work with other adults, even when you’re young. It helps develop you.

I’m really pushing parents today to make your kids work, whether they want to work or not. You’re doing them a disservice now.

Tom: Tell me, did you ever have any ambitions in terms of when you were starting out on the farm and then you went and you joined the army reserves, then you were a waiter. Did you expect that ten, 20, 30 years down the road, that you’d be the Executive Vice President of Operations for Walt Disney? Was that in our head at all?

Lee: Nothing was in my head. I was just a young kid. I didn’t know it from nothing. I didn’t even know you went to college. I thought you stayed home for the rest of your life and went to high school. I was out of it.

I just went along and basically, I was surprised every time I got promoted. But I think that Oklahoma work ethic, that working hard and showing up on time every day and raising my hand when they ask somebody to do a hard job like clean up a floor mess or trash ? some people just like it when you’re agreeable.

No, I was shocked. I never had a long-term plan. My boss told me at Disney that he knew when he was 17 he would be President at Disney one day. It turned out he was. He said “What was your goal?”

I said “I had no goal. I just tried to keep my job, go to the next one, then I’d get fired.”

That’s the way I was wired. I just did a good job, and I got promoted 18 times over 42 years. I was always surprised. I have a new theory that nobody knows what they’re doing. If you have a good attitude and you work hard, you’ll probably get ahead.

Tom: Yeah. I think you’re spot-on with that theory. But now let’s segue that for a second. You said you got promoted 42 times, but now you’ve built your own business, your own company. You’re a speaker. You’re an author. You’re doing all these amazing things. How’s that transition then?

I guess traditionally I think of the idea of being promoted as you’re still playing the position of employee, but now you’re on Boss. You’re doing all these big things. You’re a massive name on the circuit when it comes to speakers. In fact, if anybody’s listening to this, it’s a pretty big deal that you’re on the call right now with us, so I appreciate that. How’s that experience been for you?

Lee: I love it. Let me tell you what. You haven’t lived till you don’t have a boss. I just do what I want. I work with who I want. I can use private jet charter services like Jettly to travel all over the world whenever I want. This last year, I went to Kuwait, did two seminars there. I think I told you earlier I went to Baghdad in 2011 during the war and did 13 seminars for the military to help them think about how to get back into the work force.

I had a good experience, too, I could talk about with all the soldiers. My wife got very sick back in ’08 and almost died, and I had to take care of her for two years. I ended up with depression, had to get treated for a year and a half by a psychiatrist, take all these meds. I’m fine today and she’s fine today, but let me tell you. When I talk about depression, I understand what some of these guys are going through and the frustration of getting back in the work force.

I’ve been there. Been fired, been unemployed, had a kid and no job. So I liked to talk to military people. I’ve been actually working with some military for about 13 years. I met Lloyd Austin. He’s currently the Commanding General, Central Command in Tampa running the war. He was a one-star when I met him. Now, he’s a four-star, and he’s an incredible man, but he got me the opportunity to be in business.

I never charge anything. I just do it because I want to do it. I think I’m able to give a lot of these soldiers, men and women, advice on how to reenter the work force, get in with a good company, take whatever job you can get, then just show them how great you are, and then you’ll get promoted. Don’t worry about coming in at a high level. Just do what you’ve got to do. Be the best.

I tell people if you’re doing something and ten other people are doing it, you make sure you’re the best one. Best attitude, best reliability, you’re on time, you raise your hand, you get it done. A year or two later, you’ll be moving up, moving up, moving up. That’s how I got ahead, anyway.

Tom: Yeah. Tell us a little bit about that experience in terms of working with the army now and doing these kind of speaking engagements and helping out with veterans reintegrating. What made you want to get back into that? You’re writing books. You’re doing all the thought leadership stuff in the realms of management and leadership. Why spend time over in Iraq or Kuwait? It’s not the best vacation destination, that’s for sure.

Lee: You know, since I retired, I got a new attitude. I think being a teacher is probably the best thing you can do in life. People enjoy what you teach them, and you can make a difference. You can reach them and maybe inspire them and give them a different point of view to help them make them successful.

That, I guarantee you, is far more ? makes me happier than stock bonuses and cars and company cars and all that kind of stuff. Literally, the feedback I get from doing it when I can help people is incredible. When I was in Iraq, I didn’t meet one negative soldier. I’m not kidding you. I was there for seven days and went all over ? north, south Iraq, all over the place, and National Guard was there from Idaho, National Guard from Texas. These guys were pulled out of their jobs and sent over there for a year. They were all doing their jobs, and they were incredible.

I just kind of felt like being in the reserves, I probably didn’t do as much as I should have for the military and for my country, so I just signed up and started doing it. Then I started getting calls from all these different officers. I just did Fort Irwin, went out in the California desert last summer. I’ve been to Fort Bradford. You name it. I’ve been to all of them.

The soldiers are interested, and I think they just need a perspective, because it’s a big change to come out of the military back into civilian life then try to figure out what’s the best route and what to do and what kind of skills you need and all those kinds of things. Hopefully, I can help them think about that.

Tom: Yeah, definitely. When were you in Iraq when you were doing this travel over to the Middle East?

Lee: In 2011, I was in Iraq. Last year, I was in Kuwait. I went over there, and that was just public business. Kuwait was great, actually. I really liked it. I did one for the big telephone company there, and then I did a public seminar, but when I went to Iraq, I just flew right into Kuwait and went into the military side of the airport there. They picked me up and flew me down and assigned me a helicopter with two gunners, a security officer, and a medic for a week. My wife was so mad. She wanted to go, and they wouldn’t let her.

Creating MagicTom: Your first book is Creating Magic, correct?

Lee: Yeah. Creating Magic, it’s a book about leadership and what I learned at the three places I worked over the years. It’s in 14 languages now. It’s been used in universities and colleges everywhere, because the students don’t want theory anymore. They want reality, and my book’s full of stories about how to be a better leader, how to be a better manager, how to improve customer service.

That’s the first one, and it’s done real well. It just continues to do well, because I think everybody can relate to Disney. Disney executes well.

Tom: Tell me a little bit about that. From your perspective, from your years at Disney, what are the leadership lessons that you drew from that? What does Disney do really well? And from that, what do you recommend or give advice to people when it comes to leadership?

Lee: The first chapter in this book is called Remember, Everyone is Important. It really gives the message about making sure you’re treating everybody and you’re leading everybody respectfully, no matter where they’re from, what background, what sexual orientation, what culture, what religion ? to get off that and just focus on performance. Give everybody a break. Give everybody a chance. Don’t worry if they speak English or not. Don’t worry if they went to ninth grade or dropped out of college. Focus on performance.

That’s one lesson I learned: to be nicer, be more respectful, to give people a break in life, because a lot of people gave me a break. I guarantee if I hadn’t got those breaks along the way, I wouldn?t have made it. You can’t be successful without other people. Sometimes, we think we can, but it never works out that way.

Then there’s one on how to hire better. That chapter in there about how to hire people better, make less mistakes. There’s a chapter on how to create magic through training, which is a big deal with the military. Training, testing, and enforcing the training. Bill Marriott even told me “The only way you get excellence in an organization is training and enforcement of that training.” It’s true. That’s discipline.

There’s a chapter in there about what professionalism looks like from Disney’s point of view. A chapter about how to establish policies, procedures, operating guidelines, rules and regulations. I’m sure that the army has plenty of those.

It’s just got lots of good lessons. We created a teacher’s guide for it, too, and sent it to 1,200 professors. They’re starting to use it in the universities and colleges, which is nice. I hear from a lot of young people in college now these days.

Tom: What would you say, from your perspective ? I don’t think there’s a right answer here ? but I’m curious, from your perspective, what do you perceive as the biggest self-limitation, perhaps, of people entering the work force, of potentially veterans reintegrating in terms of whether it’s leadership or management or skills? What’s the biggest struggle that you see that these people go through that maybe they could take a lesson from your work at Disney or from just the leadership lessons you’ve learned at Disney?

Lee: I think when you’re making a big change from one environment to another like the military back in civilian life, I think people are insecure. I think they underestimate how successful they can really be. I think they don’t always put their best foot forward. They need to really go in there positive, tell people what they can do for them.

The training people get in the military is incredible. Companies are looking for that responsibility, ethics, honest, doing the right thing. We hired the head of Navy Seals for our security at Disney Cruise Line two years ago. He’s doing an incredible job. He was a top-enlisted person in the Seals that reported to the admiral.

We’ve got many, many people working at Disney who are former military. A lot of them are called up during Iraq and Afghanistan and were gone for a year. Of course, we held their jobs for them and bring them back. Disney happens to be a place that is very friendly to all people.

I would say don’t underestimate what you can do. Take whatever job you can do and prove it to people. I tell you, what you want to prove is that you’re willing to take on the hard stuff. Military people know how to do hard things. A lot of people in business today don’t want to take on the hard things. They don’t want to have the hard discussions. They don’t want to make the hard decisions. A lot of people haven’t had that experience and training, and certainly, military people have.

I think sometimes, in some of it, if you’ve been too many times in war, you’ve probably got some issues that you’re trying to figure out how to calm down and focus. I hope people go get help. When I suffered from depression with my wife, let me tell you what. If I hadn’t gone to get help, you know what the psychiatrist told me? He said “Lee, thanks for coming in. You’re going to be fine.”

After he interviewed me, he said “You’re suffering situational depression, not being under the stress for two years.” He said most men won’t come in for help. Women come in, he said, but the men won’t come in. I just encourage anybody listening to that, best thing I ever did. My wife made me go see him, because I wasn’t getting any better. I was starting to get hooked on a lot of narcotics, Adavan, sleeping pills, drinking.

I backed myself off of that, got help and got support, got off the pills, got myself back straightened out again, because you can’t do it by yourself. I learned a good lesson there, because you know what I used to think about depressed people? I used to say “What’s their problem? Why don’t they get their act together?”

I thought it was an attitude. Boy, did I learn a lesson. It is a bad place to go and a bad place to be. I now can spot a depressed person a mile away, and I try to help them.

Many need to get a medical doctor that’s a psychiatrist. It’s usually the drugs you need, not talk therapy. Talk therapy doesn’t work, in my opinion. You’ve got to get treated. It’s like any illness. You’ve just got to have the right medication.

A lot of companies are really interested in having military people, so I would tell them to straighten up and take a deep breath and go in there and find the right job they want. In just five years, they’ll be happy they did. They’ll get promoted two or three times and take on more responsibility. Military people know what leadership looks like.

lee-and-bookTom: Yeah. Absolutely. Tell me a little bit about some of the other projects you’re working on now. It looks like you have a podcast called Creating Disney Magic. You have a blog that you write. You’ve been writing for a number of years. You’re going speaking engagements all around the country.

Tell me a little bit about that. I feel like there’s really not that many people that do blog or do podcasting also. That’s pretty rare. What got you into that? What inspired you to spread your message via those mediums?

Lee: First, I’m a pretty good writer. I wrote a newsletter for Disney for years, so I had a lot of material. That was easy, to write the books. But I’m not great at it. I said I dropped out of college, and I wasn’t a great high school student. I don’t know really always the proper grammar or where the commas go, so I hired a professional writer to take my manuscript and clean it up and make me look good.

It’s like anything in your life. The podcast, I wouldn’t know how to do all that and edit it. This guy calls me once about five months ago, says “You want to be interviewed on my podcast?” I said “Sure.”

Then he called me back two or three weeks later, said “Well, how would you like to have your own podcast?”

I said “As long as I don’t have to do any work, it’d be great.”

He said “I’ll interview you.” He does it. It was another lesson for me. You don’t have to do everything. You’ve just got to find somebody to help you. Get an expert.

I have a trainer. I work out twice a week with weights to build bone density so I don’t fall and break a hip and end up 20 years in a wheelchair. I can’t do it by myself, so I have a schedule. 9:00 every Tuesday and Friday, man, I got work out. I’m stronger now than I was when I was 20, and I weigh exactly the same weight that I did when I got out of the army 51 years ago.

That’s discipline, and that’s what I learned. People say “How can you keep that weight?” I say “Because I want to. That’s how.” I exercise more. I eat less. I take care of myself. I’m 71 now. I’m in the Ozone. They say “What’s that?” I said “The Obituary Zone.” Guys like me could go down any minute.

I’m planning to extend this last engagement. My grandkids like me a lot. They don’t want me leaving yet.

Tom: Yeah, I bet. That’s great. What’s on the horizon for you now, then? You’re obviously actively doing all these different projects, which is pretty impressive from a time-management perspective and from an impact perspective, just what you’re able to accomplish. But what’s on the horizon for you now? What are you most excited about?

Lee: Well, I’m working on another book, which will be done hopefully sometime next year. It’s called Creating Career Magic. It’s really going to be a story about how to handle your career when you get the wrong boss, somebody you can’t stand, when you get fired, when you get passed over, when you can’t get a job. It’s just going to give a ton of advice on how to handle your career through the ups and downs.

I think a lot of people need to read that. I think hearing about my life and maybe what I went through and was able to be successful ? I think there’s a lot of people like that in America, by the way. Especially in America. This is a place you can do it. You’ve just got to work on building your own self-esteem and building self-confidence and trying things. Take risks.

I’m going to get this book published, and then I’m doing one- and two-day workshops now. I created a workshop for colleges and universities. Public workshops. I’m doing one up in Wisconsin next month, and they sold 280 tickets to local people to come and hear me for a day. I’ll do a one-day workshop on leadership management and customer service for companies that are trying to get their customer service better.

I work for Nursing College. I work for several universities. Doing a lot of work in healthcare, try to help them improve patient care, which is not always that great.

Just different businesses. The reason I love it, I’m meeting so many interesting, great people in businesses that I didn’t even know existed. It’s unbelievable. I just hook into things as they come along like the podcast. The guy says “You want to do one?” I said “Sure. Let’s do it.” So now I got a podcast, so I’m famous. And I have an app. Creating Magic App. It’s on Android and iPhones. It gives you a daily advice on how to be a better leader, better manager. It reminds you of something you may want to do when you get to work today so you don’t forget it, like “Go around and tell all your people how much you appreciate them” or whatever.

Tom: I can truly say you’ve made it, Lee, if you have your own app.

Lee: My grandkids were very impressed.

tigger3Tom: Yeah, I bet. That’s awesome. Very cool. Last question. What’s your favorite Disney character?

Lee: You know, who I like most is Tigger.

Tom: Really?

Lee: Yeah. Tigger is really active. He jumps around a lot. He’s kind of crazy. He’s got a lot of stamina. I related to Tigger when I first joined Disney. I love Tigger. He’s pretty cool.

Everybody wants to be Mickey or Minnie, and I don’t like to do what everybody else does.

Tom: I would assume that that’s one of your philosophies as well then, when it comes to success, don’t do what everyone else does? Would you say that’s true?

Lee: I am. That’s the advice I’m giving to people right now. People say “What advice would you give?” I said “Don’t do what everybody else is doing.” If everybody else has got a tattoo on their nose and on their elbow and neck and a piercing in their tongue, don’t do these things.

Be careful what you say and do. Everybody’s watching and judging you. When I was in the 70s, I had long hair over my ears. Everybody had long hair back then. Mr. Marriott came up to me and took my hair. He reached over and took it. The founder. He said “Mr. Cockerell,” ? my nametag was on, he said ? “Are you the manager here?”

I said “Yes, sir.”

He said “Why don’t you get a haircut and look like it?”

I about had a heart attack. I would tell people, America is a conservative business. If you’re going to be in entertainment or you’re going to be an NBA star, then good. Have all the tattoos you want. If you’re going to be in Hollywood, sure. Go ahead. But if you’re going to try to get jobs in American business, be conservative.

Get those tattoos put where you can hide them. Because first impressions, while they’re not fair, it’s the way things work. You’ve got to be careful. You’ve just got to be careful, because your reputation, you own it. If you don’t have a good reputation, then you’ll have a lot of regrets. Don’t make a lot of crazy decisions where you get yourself in trouble and end up not being able to get the right job just because somebody has a perception about you when it’s not even true. But it doesn’t matter. Perception is reality. We’ve got to deal with it.

Tom: We have the ability to manage that perception is what you’re saying ? is what I’m hearing. At least to a degree, we can, and that’s important.

Lee: Absolutely. We call it “being on stage”. Every day when I went to work. I had problems in my life. My wife wasn’t always happy with me. A lot of things were going on, but I never showed it. Professionals go out and do the job. They stay positive. They execute what they’re supposed to do.

If you want to be a leader, look like one. Look like the Chairman of the Board. Look like the President of the company. Then you’ll probably get there one day.

Tom: I love that. What a great message, and I think very important for veterans to hear as well.

Lee, thank you so much for being on the call with us today for this incredible interview, for your insights, for all the great work you’ve done, and for all the great work you continue to do, both in the corporate world for businesses, for entrepreneurs, but also for veterans. It’s truly remarkable.

Where can people reach out to connect with you or listen to you or buy your books or somehow otherwise engage with your app and everything else you have?

Lee: I think there’s two ways. The first way, all the stuff I do personally, you go to my website,, but also I think the people can maybe contact you with the Thrive15. I’m also part of that organization, which is 400 videos about how to be a better leader, better manager. If you use to promotion code “magic”, you can actually go, and you can use it for a month free. A lot of your listeners may want to do that, because I think it teaches how to hire, how to interview, how to fire, how to write a business plan, how to start a business, how to do public relations, marketing, social sites. It’s free for 30 days. They can watch. There are 15-minute videos in there that are really powerful. Id encourage you and even your listeners to go try it out and see if you like it.

Tom: Perfect. I will make sure that’s all listed up in the show notes, and we will definitely send people there. Again, finally, Lee, thank you so much for being on the call. It really means a lot to us.

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